The Summer 2010 issue of Buddhadharma: The Practitioner’s Quarterly (a publication of the Shambhala Sun Foundation) discussed the second-class status of Buddhist nuns and the injustice of denying women full ordination. It’s a subject that has generated a lot of controversy and strong emotion on both sides of the table. So we decided we’d like to hear from you, our readers. What are your thoughts on this issue?
The authors of “The Time Has Come” have been participants in our online discussion. You’re welcome to ask them questions about the article or the issues surrounding women and Buddhism. Below is a link to the full text of The Time Has Come, along with two shorter articles on this subject. (These links open in new windows.) So Join In! Just click on the Comments link below to post a comment or question. Please note: this is a forum meant for respectful communication. If a comment is posted that is clearly disrespectful, it will be deleted.
Read The Time Has Come, by Thanissara, Jitindriya, and Elizabeth Day (pictured, L-R). Plus:
- That Was Then, This Is Now by Janet Gyatso
- “I Will Do It” by Llundup Damcho
57 Comments
I mostly don't understand the difficulty with the concept of ordaining women. If all things have no inherent existence, why would the notion of something having been written or established matter to a Buddhist? The very idea of exclusion seems antithetical to the pith teachings. However, once I read the articles, I also found I had to work with my strong feelings of judgement towards those who would make such a point of opposing such a thing. From that standpoint, it would have been helpful to understand what horrible thing these gentlemen imagine could come of female ordination. We're already stuck with impermanence, so what's the big deal?
"The Seventeenth Gyalwang Karmapa stunned an international audience in Bodhgaya last winter by making an unprecedented declaration of commitment to ordaining women as bhikshunis in the Tibetan Buddhist tradition. when there would be bhikshuni ordination in the Tibetan tradition, he leaned forward and said, in English, 'I will do it.'"
My reaction? *Fantastic!*
This is kind of a no brainer. When I started practicing, I was like why are all the Big Guys well, guys. It became kind of clear that this was historical sexism rearing it’s head. It really doesn’t say much for Buddhism that this sort second-class citizenship exists in a religion that is about owning one’s thoughts and eliminating suffering. As a Buddhist, I look forward to this sort bias becoming a memory.
Just a suggestion for a change
in the Golden Light Sutra
page 21 at the bottom
May all women become like men
heroic learned lucid and strong
change to
May all men and women become
Heroic Learned Lucid and Strong

Brava Eva.
Re
"The Seventeenth Gyalwang Karmapa stunned an international audience in Bodhgaya last winter by making an unprecedented declaration of commitment to ordaining women as bhikshunis in the Tibetan Buddhist tradition. when there would be bhikshuni ordination in the Tibetan tradition, he leaned forward and said, in English, 'I will do it.'"
This is wonderful. HH the Dalai Lama has the same intention. He initiated The Hamburg Congress of 2007, attended by about 400 monastics from all traditions, scholars and lay practitioners, with the express purpose of deciding on a model for Bhikshuni ordination within the Tibetan tradition.
The event promised to be the culmination of decades of hard work by the Western nuns who had taken Bhikshuni ordination in other traditions, many of their supporters, including several dozen scholars from all traditions. It became clear that there was no legal, ethical or spiritual reason to block the reinstatement of full ordination. However a motion to reinstate full ordination stalled.
The reason was that it HH felt it was hard to reach consensus in the larger Tibetan monastic community. He talked of the importance of to convincing what he called ‘narrow-minded Geshes.’
Besides the wonderful intentions of these powerful and deeply respected and loved teachers, it seems that there also needs to be a lot of ground work done within various sanghas to help prepare the way.
I appreciate that Buddhist leaders are now addressing this, and doing it in a way that considers current-day values, as well as trying to respect the roots of tradition. And this is not to say that I know or respect those roots, since I know very little about the early ordination rules and practices. ..but I can only imagine, rocking the boat at this level has got to stir up a huge amount of feeling and opinion about all kinds of relative practices, values, and beliefs.
Thank you, Thanissara, Jitindriya, and Elizabeth, for continuing this discussion.
Bravo to this wonderful article!
Bahiya had the right attitude. He had walked half way across India to find the Buddha, burning to know the profound truth taught by the Buddha. When Bahiya found the Buddha, he was on alms round with his monks. In answer to Bahiya's insistent demand to teach him his Dhamma that he might know the truth and thus be free, the Buddha said, “Not now Bahiya, we are on alms round.” Bahiya however demanded an answer, saying that we never know when we may die. Finally the Buddha gave him the short and profound teaching that brought Bahiya instantly to full awakening. Bahiya did not efface himself with obeisance and veneration for the Buddha. He demanded what he knew was necessary for him to fully realize his human potential, awakening. And the Buddha respected his spiritual urgency. Women are now in a similar position. We should insist that our needs for full equality on the path to awakening be heard by our venerable teachers, who indeed are wonderful, but not perfect.
My reaction is posted on the Elephant Journal . There is simply not enough room in comments to proclaim how wonderful this is and thank you to all those proactive and engaged Buddhist women.
But I am equally amazed at how many practitioners take the Pali Canon at face value without actually applying some compassion to its interpretation.
Cheers,
John http://www.zendirtzendust.com http://www.tiferetjournal.com
Reader comments via Facebook:
Mary Streets
This age old prejudice against women is even alive and well among "supposed" enlightened men. I feel incredibly tired.
Annie Shuman
agreed. It is sad, but true of most religions…however, any one can choose devote many hours to prayer and for the Peace of the World…
Sandy Grayson
all spiritual traditions should allow men and women equal status- why not?
Vanessa Grey
When u r dealing with ancient traditions and religion…the thoughts r still antiquated in many ways. The only way to change it would b for the current spiritual leader to change the dogma and set an example. That's why I don't believe in the paradigms of religion…they r too cumbersome for any change to take place. Its going to happen one individual at a time…I'm doing my part and so can everyone else with an individual mind.
Gwen Reitemeier
We cannot control what others think and do. We can only control ourselves. I'm thinking of Ghandi: "Be the change you wish to see in the world". I know these traditions are only powerful if I believe in them.
The difficulties lies in the organization of Buddhism rather than the practice or the concepts. Conceptually it is very easy to consider the spiritual equality of all genders but within these organizations, people are clinging to out-moded ideals.
But the words of the 17th Karmapa and the actions of Ajahm Brahm do give me hope that more and more members of those organizations are turning a more progressive eye towards the practice, I wrote about it in my article Buddhism, Bhikshunis and why religions are scared of vagina.
I don't know why but I think that the cultures that evolved alongside Buddhism may have placed some of their societal preferences and preconceptions on the practice, itself. It would be foolish to assume that both culture and religion exist in a vaccuum independant of each other.
The tricky part is picking the cultural from the religious. So often they begin to meld together.
Cheers,
John http://www.zendirtzendust.com http://www.tiferetjournal.com
I love the way you draw from the story of Bahiya – and the sense of urgency that it exemplifies. I agree, in these times, there is really no excuse not to explore the legacy of gender discrimination in Buddhism.
thanks Jack for your web links – they are a really interesting resource. I look forward to exploring them.
I've been learning about Buddhism for a while now and it's been wonderful and continues to help me make positive changes in my life. But I'd never actually become a Buddhist for this very reason. As a woman there's just no way I could officially join an organization that basically says I can't be a leader solely based on my gender. I'm sure there are lots of other reasons I can't be a leader … but you get what I'm saying here. The idea that ones gender matters seems completely out of step with their teachings.
Considering that the Buddha organized the ordained Sangha to be entirely dependent upon the laity for its physical continuation, then this glass ceiling has to be maintained through the tacit support of the laity, including all the many women who, like myself, do so very much appreciate and revere the teachings of the Western Thai Forest Ajahns. However, I think the Buddha organized the Sangha in this way so that the laity has a duty, not only of devotion to our teachers, but also to communicate to them in a way that they really understand, the distress of women over being denied full equality on the path and their longings to be able to follow the full path, and what it means not to have role models as examples. This is to reflect truth in our relationships, and if the Buddha's teaching is about anything, it is about truth. Our Ajahns value speaking from the heart, and they do it so well. The complement to speaking from the heart, is listening from the heart. If our Western Ajahns will listen in this way, they will hear a profound longing from the laity to restore the crown of the spiritual path for women, that we all may again see and hear and learn from relevant role models.
I was originally ordained a novice monk in the Tibetan tradition in 2001 (I received full ordination at a Vietnamese monastery in 2008), a tradition in which Western nuns and monks are both largely denied support and any organized training or education. Of course, one can find exceptions to this general trend, but I can empathize with nuns who are kept in an inferior position and those who are denied full ordination.
There are traditions, however, in which women can receive full ordination, so I don't quite understand why someone would choose to ordain in a tradition that denies full ordination. Of course, it can be argued that those lineages that do provide full ordination do not offer genuine equality. However, it seems clear to me that there are lineages that do offer greater access to education and training along with full ordination. Frankly, had I know the situation of Western monastics in the Tibetan tradition more fully prior to my novice ordination, I would most likely have pursued a different path.
I encourage women and men considering ordination to look very carefully at the communities into which they hope to ordain. It is important to know whether or not one will have the support, education and training necessary to pursue and sustain the monastic life.
Greetings from the southern hemisphere. I'm delighted to join into this sane and sober discussion. Thank you for engaging with the issues and bringing your commitment and experience to this discussion. After some subtle and not so subtle criticisms, insults and reactions to our participation in the article, elsewhere, I find it refreshing to witness here some fearless and intelligent attempts to grapple with the implications for buddhist monasticism of the ancient stupidities of sexism .
I agree, Elaine, 'what's the big deal' about women ordaining? And Jack your comments about discerning the entanglements of culture and religion creates room for the important re-evaluations that can keep a tradition vital and alive. Yes, it continues to surprise me when the Pali canon – created over time through the hands of many authors – is taken literally and used to close down fruitful enquiry.
Lisa I think you say it well: the complement to speaking from the heart, is listening from the heart. While we are each responsible for our own paths, we are interdependent, intersubjective and inter-related to living beings. This is not about rugged individualism; about doing it your way or mine; creating a new religion if you don't like the one on offer. This is, rather, about working together to sustain the life of the practice and keep it truly open for those whose time has come.
Thanks
A terrible injustice is signed against the Dalai Lama, who was the first to proclaim sponsorship of the Bhikshuni lineage within the Tibetan Buddha Sangha. Not the Karmapa Lama! This promise of the Dalai Lama in 2005, was publicly confirmed by his oath in 2007, in the University of Hamburg, Germany. Now, I would like to remind the readers of this traditional Quarterly, ‘The Buddhadharma’, that it will be necessary money in order to Bhikshuni’s lineage be fully established in the Tibetan Buddha Sangha. But, first, there is need to save more Tibetan Buddhist Nuns – Anis – who are being arrested, tortured and put to death in Tibet. This is the reason why the Dalai Lama has not yet paid for Bhikshunis ordinations in the Tibetan Buddha Sangha. Om Mani Padme Hum!
Hi Elizabeth – yes it's true what you say – this is a sane and sober response. Made me realize a few things about the debate that I've experienced since the Perth ordinations – how charged it has been within the Forest Sangha. Which makes it difficult to get real perspective. It feels like one has to don armor to enter the fray – all very tiring.
Which led me to considering the importance of outside help. It's a bit like family therapy – can't be done from within the family. There seems a real need for taking this dialog into a larger sphere. Which is what I believe HH the Dalai Lama was attempting with the Hamburg Congress. While that focused more on the legalities of Bhikkhuni ordination, there's an important need within Buddhist inter-tradition dialog (and maybe inter-faith) to explore the roots of misogyny held within our collective Buddhist inheritance. (& inheritance in religious tradition)
It's great to see so many thoughtful comments on this issue. I just want to remind folks that this is a forum for respectful communication. If a comment is posted that is clearly disrespectful, it will be deleted.
Thank you,
Tynette Deveaux, Editor of Buddhadharma: The Practitioner's Quarterly
Disrespectful, Madame, is this article proposing to delete the Vinaya sacred rule of the Eight Garudhammas.
“THE ADMISSION OF WOMEN TO THE SANGHA
(Ordination of Bhikkhunis in the Buddha Sangha)
"Well then, Ananda, if Maha-Pajapati, the Gotamid, will undertake to keep Eight Important rules, let that be reckoned unto her as full ordination. Those Rules are these:
A Bhikkhuni, even if she be a hundred years in the robes, shall salute, shall rise up before, shall bow down before, shall perform all duties of respect unto a Bhikkhu, even if that Bhikkhu have only just taken the robes. Let this rule never be broken, but be honoured, esteemed, reverenced, and observed as long as life doth last.
Second, a Bhikkhuni shall not spend the rainy season in a district where there is no Bhikkhu residing. Let this rule never be broken, but be honoured, esteemed, reverenced, and observed as long as life doth last.
Thirdly, at the half-month let a Bhikkhuni await two things from the Sangha of Bhikkhus, namely, the appointing of the Sabbath and the coming of a Bhikkhu to teach. Let this rule never be broken, but be honoured, esteemed, reverenced, and observed as long as life doth last.'
……..
The ordination of Bhikkhunis in the Buddha Sangha is legally an issue of the Buddha Sangha.
The ordination of Bhikkhunis in the Buddha Sangha is a human rights issue of the Buddha Sangha.
The Buddha Sangha has the right to freedom of religion.
Wow, again Pachenlama (M.F Machado), I think the Eight Garudhammas are in need of some updating and am fairly sure that most women that wish for full ordination would agree.
But I agree that every sangha has the right to refuse full ordination of women and that sangha also has the right to dwindle into nothing. Personally, I have no issue with leaving a sangha that refuses wmoen equal spiritual footing as men.
Yup, time for that to go. Women bowing to men is soooo last millenia. It is obviously a cultural artifact. Time to get rid of it. I am quite glad that some monastics are in agreement that it must change but only disagree on how quickly.
Cheers,
John
http://www.zendirtzendust.com
As a woman living in one of the Nordic countries I find this type of discrimination of women appauling. Seems to me that the same men who are defending the rights of e.g. ethnic groups or other minorities, have no problems with discrimination of women. Where does this hostility and anger come from? I am not a buddhist nor a supporter of any religion, so pleae enlighten me on this issue.
Hi Helena,
As far as I understand this phenomenon of gender-discrimination, it is rooted in deep patriarchal world views and biases, that are yet to be fully seen and abandoned by our societies. Whilst modern societies are attempting to address this discrimination in the secular world, these old patriarchal religious institutions are way behind in this. Why? My sense is that it threatens the existing male power-base of those instiututions, and so there is resistence to change (ironically so, for the Buddhist traditions, since the pivotal teaching is about the truth and inevitabilty of change, not to mention the anatta of male/femaleness!). Psychologically speaking however, there is an extra dimension which resists change, i.e., the unconscious fear of the feminine, which in such institutions is manifested as fear of women in various ways: fear of women in power; fear of sharing power with women; and a general fear of association with women. Thus, keeping women out of the 'inner circle' is paramount to holding the fort. It is primitive, yes, but so is much of our unconscious resistence to certain things.
Unless work is done by individuals on the psychological level to break through their biases and blind-spots in this area, resistence to this particular kind of discrimination and the need for change will be delayed. For some its a no-brainer; for others its a calamity and a huge paradigm shift of consciousness in the making.
I have a practical/procedural question for the ex-nuns who wrote this article. I live near Abhayagiri and sometimes attend talks and programs that monks offer in the community. Ajahn Amaro will be beginning a series soon, and, while I dearly love his presence and teaching, I am rather outraged by the stance he and other leaders have taken. I myself am ordained as a priest in the Soto Zen tradition and have experienced no real discrimination in my residency and training. I want to help bring this about for you, too… Part of me wants to confront Ajahn Amaro publically, but I don't want to personally vent in a way that just opens wounds rather than heals them. I could write letters to the (female) sponsors of the event, attend and circulate a petition… what would you like me and others who may have some association with your former community do? What would be most helpful?
Ka Shin Shin Shi,
My sense is that each person needs to respond in a way that feels true for them.
Various actions over the past 6 months that I am aware of – in relation to the situation we wrote about in the article – have included:
lay supporters speaking to monks one-on-one about their disappointment in the resistance against bhikkhuni ordination; and/or asking questions in public forums about the issue; and/or deciding no longer to offer resources to monks who oppose gender equity; nuns moving to contexts where there is more understanding of these issues, and leading new communities; nuns disrobing; buddhist practitioners organising a petition to present to monks about the issues; bloggers and writers and dialoguers communicating, getting informed, staying in contact, etc.
One critical factor, going forward, is that women ordained in the various traditions support one another rather than fall into competition – the division between different types and levels of ordinations is an effect of the problem, not a solution to it. The coming together of so many women (and supportive men) from different traditions and levels of ordination at the 2007 Hamburg Congress created a critical mass and added impetus to the changes we are experiencing.
So, your interest in supporting women to take their full place within global buddhist practice is heartening.
Your own integrity will lead you.
Whoa, whoa, whoa! Come on, people. I've seen a couple of comments here (since deleted, thankfully) that are so hateful, so completely unlike what the Buddha could have possibly wanted from us. That is not compassion. It's not mindfulness. It's not a "religion of love." It's intolerance.
When I see "Buddhists" saying such things, it makes me ashamed to be one. I tell you this, we won't have a true Western Buddhism until it's wholly civil and completely inclusive in its discourse and its hierarchy. Yecch. Let's all meditate and start over.
For years I lived, worked and meditated as a long term meditator at IMS, however now I am retired and live far away, but have many friends there. I have had great respect and gratitude for the western Thai Forest monks, and their response to the bhikkhuni issue has been deeply disturbing to me. I sent an article that I wrote on the subject to friends at IMS, at the time that Ajahn Amaro was teaching, just recently, and they then decided to ask him about the issue. He gave an hour at the end of the retreat for staff and meditators to talk about this issue, and he began, as my friend tells me, by saying that he fully supported bhikkhuni ordination.
It seems that the meeting was very moving. But I am not sure if he was asked what he intended to do about this issue and the Five Points……
Hi Lisa and Ka Shin Shin Shi,
Thanks for sharing what you have. The issue facing many [male] monastics now is to move from a 'talk it' kind of support to a 'walk it' kind of support. Several Western monks in senior positions may feel free to 'say' they are supportive of Bhikkhuni ordination, but when it comes down to it, they do nothing in the face of community resistance, both in their own monasteries in the West or in the wider context of their Thai communities, and thus do not follow through with anything constructive. Personally, I would be asking questions of senior monks like "what are you personally, and communally, doing about it?"…
"Are there discussions to address this issue and plan a way forward that we, as female supporters and practitioners, can be included in on?" …
" Do you have plans to discuss these issues with your community openly, and to gather together as senior Western monastics to discuss these concerns with your senior monks in Thailand?"…
"Does there come a time, in the Western Forest Sangha, to declare their cultural independence from their Thai roots, for the sake of growing a healthy sangha in the West, rather than waiting for Thai authorities to capitulate [not!]?"
These kind of actions would take quite some effort to organise within the community, and quite some time to discuss and resolve, so it won't happen till the monks see that this issue is indeed of grave importance and needs to be addressed and resolved amenably as soon as possible!
These are only my thoughts and suggestions I am sharing with you; do take Elizabeth's words to heart and find your own voice and integrity in the process — this is as vital a part of the whole process as anything else.
With best wishes,
These are great suggestions Jitindriya. I think direct questions and continuing to keep the discussion alive is very important. As many have said on this blog that gender discrimination is simply not an option in our contemporary societies. And so it will impact the ability of Buddhism and Buddhist monasticism to be really root in the West if this issue is not consciously addressed.
I agree there is a great difference between saying what is expedient to appease supporters and being willing to authentically respond from a deeper ethic which may put one at odds with monastic elders and peers.
Jitindriya brings up another important and tricky area of consideration. The balance between respecting the lineage from which teachings and training is handed on – and the need to be free from the ties to the tradition when it starts to undermine a healthy transition into a new culture.
I would say that the Forest Sangha is at that juncture in the West. An overly strong allegiance to the power pyramid of the Thai monastic hierarchy is obstructing a more mature and healthy process of consensus and feed back, which would be more in line with the Buddha's original intention.
We are all contributing to the Buddhism that arises here in the West – if we just take on traditions without true inquiry into the health of them, then we do a disservice to future generations.
So in short – keep the questions going!
Appreciate your engagement with this issue, that you have been touched enough to write something yourself. Do you have a link to your article. Would you feel comfortable with sharing it here?
I'm glad Ajahn Amaro is talking about these issues, particularly as he will be taking over from Ajahn Sumedho at Amaravati in the UK. I'm not sure what that means, but he'll be in a difficult position and will be inheriting a conflicted 'relational field' after recent events.
Regards the five points, they need to be chucked out.
The glass ceiling in religions are resistant to crumbling, because they are held up by our deep veneration and respect for our teachers, and this is true most especially for women. However within the western Buddhist world, these glass ceilings are not upheld, as they are in the Catholic and the Mohammedan world, by long tradition, society, prestige and a great deal of much money. Thus our western Buddhist institutions are much more vulnerable to pressure and to loss of support. Let us make full use of this vulnerability!
We have this incredible good karma and opportunity to restore to the Buddhadharma the full four fold sangha. Let us not fail!
In case anyone would like to read further. I am posting links to a relevant site: Alliance for Bhikkhunis – and their recent publication: Present.
It also includes a further exploration I wrote about the place of nuns and marginalization of the feminine in Buddhist monasticism –
In particular the difficulty of the 5 points – called:
Take it or Leave it and the Ground Between – http://bhikkhuni.net/present/spring2010/present-g...
Present – on line publication from Alliance of Bhikkhunis (AfB) http://bhikkhuni.net/present/index.html
Alliance of Bhikkhunis (AfB) – http://www.bhikkhuni.net/
I was stunned a few years ago when, during a visit to the Land of the Medicine Buddha, I met a nun of a Tibetan Tradition who was doubling over from back pain as she worked. We talked, and she told me she had been told by doctors that she desperately needed surgery to correct her increasingly worsening problem. "I have had back surgery," I told her, "and it took away my pain, although it doesn't always work." "I can't have it — I have no health insurance," she said. Shocked, I said, "do the lamas have health insurance?" "Yes they do, she said." And I thought, even here things are worse for women . . . .
Hi Ginny,
This touches into the wider cultural context of Buddhism where men are valued over women as vehicles of spiritual transmission and as conduits for spiritual blessing. In Thailand monks are valued in part because it is believed that the offering of material goods to them increases good karma.
They act as spiritual bank accounts, so to speak, for future lives. Nuns are not seen in this light at all. Giving them material support doesn’t translate into ‘merit.’ I would think there is a similar dynamic going on within Tibetan Buddhism.
Until these kinds of views are really investigated and debunked, we will continue to see nuns under supported in their Asian contexts. Definitely this is not a view we should encourage or transplant to the West. Also this intention around dana distorts the purity of offering itself.
Hi Thanissara,
I would be happy to share it, but it is too long to be posted here – how else could I share it. It is 2,400 words. Perhaps I should try to get it published in Presence. Can I send it to you as a link?
A few of the paragraphs have been used in my comments. I do feel very strongly about this, as I feel it impacts the ability for the Buddhadharma to survive in modern societies, if the full path is not available, as the Buddha set it out.
Hi Lisa,
I appreciate your depth of concern, and I agree, for Buddhism to have a more secure future in the West the issue of gender discrimination needs to be addressed.
I think submitting your article to Present is a good idea. Yes, do send it as a link, would it work to put the link here?
There is clearly a need for some forum for sharing more considered articles/ thoughts beyond blog spaces. Maybe the editors of Present may have some ideas.
I'm not sure what such forums would look like. But usually when a need reaches a more critical mass, the way forward becomes apparent.
It would work as a link here, but I do not know how to do it. I only have it on my computer. I had actually sent it to Buddhadharma about a month before your article came out, so it covers some of the history, but not as well as your article does. And inevitably it is written from the point of view of a very concerned lay person. As I had sent it to Buddhadharma, maybe Tynette still has it, if she kept it….. Could she upload it? She told me about your article and emailed me a link to it before it was out.
I had been very concerned that nothing was appearing in print, which is why I wrote, and also, I needed to sort out my thoughts, which would not leave me alone, around the full Four Fold Sangha, the sadness of the Five Points, and Ajahn Brahm's excommunication.
Lisa – if you send it to me at office@dharmagiri.org I'll create a link for it.
Also put 'For the attention of Thanissara' on subject line – Thanks. Look forward to reading it.
Thanks Lisa – here is the link – I see that indeed we've been thinking along the same lines – Interesting you mention the Catholic Church – there is much resonance there with the situation in the Thai Forest Sangha. Perhaps no coincidence given the influence from of the Vatican on theThai monarchy at the beginning of the 19th Century. Ajahn Sujato has done some interesting research on that.
Your focus on role modelling is really important – part of the heart of th issue also.
With your permission I'll put the link on the Women & the Forest Sangha face book group. It may also be good to put in on Sujato's blog.
I didn't put your surname on the article in case you preferred to stay more anon.
Very best wishes – T
ps – I've pasted this at the end of the is blog roll – in case it gets missed in this side discussion.
http://www.box.net/shared/static/hi8vjj674r.doc
Hi Thanissara,
You have my permission, I am delighted to see it somewhere. You can also put my name on it – I have no problem with being counted on this. I have written what I think to enough Ajahns.
I will send see if I can get it on Sujato's blog – or should you do that?
We need, as you say, to keep the discussion going….
Be well!
Lisa
I'm happy to put it on Sujato's blog.
Here is a further article – written by a concerned lay supporter Lisa – for those who are interested in reading perspectives that are well thought out.
Missing Role Models for Women in Buddhism – http://www.box.net/shared/static/hi8vjj674r.doc
Do not follow idiots. Do not listen to fools. Think about what your teachers are saying. Do not seek after recognition from sexist people. Walk away from them and tell them why they are wrong. Any person who says that a female being is anything less than a male being is no teacher no matter what he or his followers believe and no matter who he is – without exception. This should not need saying. That it has to be said is only because some people believe that the truth can only comes from men in robes. It usually does not. People with authority in robes are religious people. They make their living from following and enforcing rules and having social priestly positions. They are interesting but they are not the truth. The truth is much more obvious and accessible than any of these people.
Who knows the sex of the bird singing in the forest and only a fool would care.
Shun the priests of traditional sexism and let them go their way to madness and folly alone.
Peter Taylor
I applaud the magazine for its excellent coverage of this issue.
I note that the editors in the note above these comments have referred to Buddhadharma as the "sister" publication of the Shambhala Sun. The reason why inanimate entities are referred to as female has to do with Anglophones' androcentricity which posits anything that is not male as "other" hence the female gendering of objects.
Particularly introducing this article, it would be good to abandon this usage.
Thanks for your comment, Pam. I see your point and have revised the post.
Tynette Deveaux, Editor of Buddhadharma: The Practitioner's Quarterly
Dear Thanissara, Jitindriya and Cintamani,
What can I say? Goosebumps and wet eyes throughout reading your wonderful article! You formulate things I feel and, on some level, know, but never managed to dress up in words myself. I also notice how pissed off and sad I am with the current state of the gender divide in "our" monasteries. Really glad you´re all out there to shine some light!
Much gratitude and affection,
Natthiko
Ahh – Thanks Natthiko! – Ya – it's all a bit sad really isn't it…
Hopefully Buddhists will not relegate their religion to obscurity as the Catholics have done by not allowing women to be equal partners.
Hi Thanissara,
I agree with your comment about the need for wider dialogue around these issues, and particularly inter-faith initiatives since similar concerns are shared across many religions and spiritual traditions.
This November in California, an important inter-faith retreat is being held. This gathering will bring together female leaders representing diverse spiritual organizations and perspectives from all over North America. The purpose is to build relationships, explore the current realities of women’s spiritual leadership, and define future collaborative projects – all within the framework of the Sacred Feminine. The emphasis will be on exploring the various issues that are unique to women and that represent some of the most significant barriers to activating their authentic placement and leadership.
All three Buddhist schools are represented, and the hope that one of the outcomes will be a means by which Buddhist women who are active in addressing gender inequities can get – and stay – connected in order to identify areas and opportunities for inter-faith collaboration.
Brenda Batke-Hirschmann, Vice President, Alliance for Bhikkhunis
It saddens me that gender bias is an issue in another religious system. I am very much attracted to the buddist way, but I realize the imperfection of all organized religion. I tip my hat to these courages women, but I am old enough to remember and continue to see the gender discrimination in all of it’s disguises. Catholic priest…Buddist monk, clothing is different but….
thanks :)
When I read that, in response to a petition presented along with thousands of comments of concerned Buddhists, the abbots who participated in the five points and in the expulsion of Ajahn Brahm, they simply restated their position with no opening for dialogue, all I can say is they have proven themselves morally bankrupt!
Why, after all this, would anyone continue to beseech those who are so unworthy? Why grant them authority they obviously do not merit? I would like to see western Buddhists start our own orders and lineages; we do not need to prostrate before sexist, dogmatic, closed-minded men!
Certainly, all those who are appalled by such small-mindedness, must with-hold ALL support. Let us put our money, our time, and our energy where it is truly warranted: supporting those like Ajanh Brahm, and perhaps starting our own orders. We do not need to look to the East for validation! And we do not have to kowtow to western sexists like Ajanh Sumedho.
As someone who tithes 10% of my income, I will be sure NOT to offer any dana to any group in which there is not absolute equality in the treatment and respect accorded monks and nuns.
And please, continue to broadcast loudly and clearly that a growing number of practitioners will no longer countenance such backwardness. For too long Buddhism has been idealized by practitioners who have little or no understanding of the actual politics within the sangha.
Dear Dee,
As a women, I left Catholicism because of it's attitudes towards women, only to be shocked that gender inequality was to be found, not just in Buddhism, but even in American Buddhism! So, I can understand your reluctance to become a Buddhist. But thank heavens for impermanence!
Trungpa Rinpoche was hopeful that the one thing America can offer Buddhism is a fresh start- free from those deeply ingrained cultural biases. At his urging, therefore, my teacher started a new lineage. This lineage is not Tibetan, not Japanese, not Thai. It intertwines all of the Buddhist teachings of various lineages freely and leaves out the cultural baggage of race, gender, and such. We call it Celtic Buddhism and it is our attempt to breathe new life and honesty into a religion that has become bogged down by politics and male dominated hierarchies.
As the anamchara and abbess of Glen Ard Abbey, I am constantly hearing stories from women about their discrimination in even the most modern of Buddhist training centers. And, having trained as a monk for 8 years in an American Japanese Zen monastery, I also have experienced these biases personally and striven, often unsuccessfully, to make a change. But change will be slow in places where there is a male dominated hierarchy. And change will be quick when women step up to the plate and start their own Buddhist monasteries and Lineages. But, things WILL change!
I am confident that Trungpa Rinpoche was right in hoping that America would renew, refresh and help Buddhism continue to evolve for the better. But he said it could only happen when Buddhism broke free of outdated cultural attitudes and became American Buddhism- not Tibetan Buddhism, Japanese Zen, Chan, Thai or etc. There are many ways we all can manifest this dream. I applaud everyone who is striving in their own way to bring Buddhism into the 21st century and make it a practice for everyone, regardless of gender, race, sexual preference, and etc.
This was a great Buddhadharma article. My heartfelt thanks to everyone involved and to Buddhadharma for publishing it!!
eeewwwwwwww … girls … yuck!!!!!
LOL … j/k
Rick